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Author Topic: Local control without cloud access  (Read 11372 times)

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LGNilsson

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Re: Local control without cloud access
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2014, 12:39:35 am »
No. No, it doesn't. There's no reason why a http interface could not be hosted on the Almond + and made available over the internet (with the proper security in place to prevent random internet-tough-guys from blinking your lights on and off). It would just mean entering your Home IP address (or your DNS name if you set up that service) into the app settings to make that work.
If a full up webpage was generated, then you only need to navigate to your home IP address, login, and mess with your home automation stuff to your hearts content from anywhere on the internet. No app needed.

Well, have you tried the local web UI? It actually looks ok on most mobile devices, although it's not perfect, but it does exactly what you're asking for.

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In my opinion cloud hosting is where products like 'Wink' have gone wrong. It's another point of failure, of unknown state to the end-user, that they have no control or capability to fix. It adds lag to any sent command and can go offline at any moment, screwing up timed events. I have a Wink and I hate it for these reasons. Please Almond + team, don't put all your eggs into the 'cloud' basket. The 'cloud' doesn't make much sense for this application. There's no reason to route every command through the remote cloud server and back out to the home user when he's on the same network as the almond + 90% of the time he's trying to issue commands. Also, do you really want to be continuously upgrading your severs as the customer base grows, constantly requiring more bandwidth to keep everyone happy, for no recurring revenue return? How are you going to plug that to management? If you can't defend it to management, then the cloud service it doomed to atrophy until it's as unusable as the Wink.

Have you had an issues with lag on the app side on the Almond+? Having played with the Wink hub, our app is 5x faster in terms of response time and I have never seen the issue I've seen on the Wink hub where you switch something and it doesn't change state. We've had some issues where you get a message that the sensor didn't respond, but that's a different matter.

The cloud makes a lot of sense for this application, see me reply above. Then again, as pointed out, we still have a local web UI that doesn't require any kind of cloud connection and this is also where the automation will be located initially, so it'll work even if your internet connection is down, unlike most home automation solutions in the market today.

We don't have to plug anything to management, as management is involved in the daily operation of the company, please remember that we're a smaller company and we also have very flat company structure, so if I want to talk to management (which I guess I'm part of), I'd go to the back of the office where our CEO is sitting...

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On the other hand, someone who's got it right is Honeywell and their Vista Automation Controller. I recently picked one up for interfacing with my existing home security system. It provides z-wave home automation, controlled from a locally hosted webpage, and sends security email notifications via STMP.  No cloud servers needed (but you can buy Honeywell's cloud monitoring service if you really want). Perfectly independent. Fast response time to commands sent via the web interface. I can access the my home website from any where on the net. No app needed. This is the way I want Almond + to go.

We're looking at adding an SMTP option for email notifications, but it won't happen until next year. Apart from that, I think we're heading in that direction already, but with a free cloud service for those that wants to use it.

Offline fillibar

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Re: Local control without cloud access
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2014, 08:27:17 am »
Thanks for the response Lars. No matter what, you folks keep working at it all and I think it will work out. At least I hope Securifi keeps going because so far, so good.
Almond 3 mesh handling the home.

LGNilsson

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Re: Local control without cloud access
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2014, 08:57:24 am »
I hope it'll get a lot better soon  ;)

Offline Ab

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Re: Local control without cloud access
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2014, 09:16:12 am »
+1 for me too! I'd like to use the app so I don't have to log-in every time but the A+ web UI would work in the meantime! I'll give it a try ...

my two design cents, if it helps.
  • Have us set the home network. If set then once on that network it talks to A+ directly and if not set always thru the cloud. This will allow us to talk to A+ thru the cloud always or directly at our option
  • Outside the Home network force the cloud to update status when we access/re-invoke the app and we have a home network set

from what I've seen the app must refresh anyway, at least I'm forced to ... e.g. if a lamp (GE Link bulb) is powered off (power source turned off) it continues to show the unit as ON, so maybe we need a third state to display disconnected state. I guess at this point A+ is unaware that the lamp is powered off.

Side Note: Is there a likelihood of a Windows app in the future (We also have windows phones/tabs in our homes)? If not at least providing the API at some point would allow us to build one for ourselves!

LGNilsson

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Re: Local control without cloud access
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2014, 09:47:51 am »
Uhm, how is the Almond+ supposed to know that you turned off your ZigBee bulb at the mains switch? That's impossible. The only thing we could report is that the device is offline in a case like this and even that isn't so easy.
Any sensor that has its power source disconnected stops reporting, that's just how it is.

If what you wanted us to do was easy, wouldn't 1. think we'd done it and 2. why aren't everyone else doing it?
Again, I'm not saying this will never be done, but if you read some of the previous replies I've given in this thread, you'd know some of the reasons as to why it hasn't been done and why it'll take a lot of time.

As for a Windows app, yes, it's possible in the future, but so far it's only a small minority of customers/backers asking for this, so it's not a priority.

Offline bwainscott

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Re: Local control without cloud access
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2014, 12:36:41 pm »
My 2cents on this whole "without the cloud" topic:  yes, please!

Now, the biggest issue I see is the protocol problem -- I'm sure the way the A+ and the cloud talk is not the same as the way the cloud and the app talk, so you couldn't directly hook up the app to the A+ without some (likely significant) changes.  I don't expect anything soon, but I hope they get around to it eventually.   Then when away from home, the app could STILL talk directly to the A+ via VPN.  I use this approach now with the web UI -- works the same when at home or away.  I've never used the app at all.  The only real problem I have with the web UI is that it is clunky on a phone, and the need to log in to the A+ each time I want to use it.  If there was a slick mobile interface and a way to use certificates to bypass the login, I'd be perfectly OK with it.

Now, for the simple home user, setting up the VPN and turning it on on their phone might be more than they want to do -- I have no problem with Securifi offering the cloud service, in fact I think it makes sense for them.  I'll just not use it.

So my suggestions for the app include:

- ability to input the IP address of my A+ and connect directly (bypassing the cloud) (I'd put in 10.10.10.254 which works when at home or away via VPN)
- certificates or public/private keys for authentication (so no login required), or something like whatever they do with the app now.
- probably a "local/cloud" switch option would be required for users that don't want to set up the VPN.   Most users would set it to 'cloud' and forget it.  Some users would switch it whenever they need access away from home.  I'd leave it on "local" and use the VPN.

I'm really looking forward to the next few updates, hoping the automation starts to be useful -- keep up the good work!



Offline Ab

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Re: Local control without cloud access
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2014, 02:52:29 pm »
absolutely agree in fact I said as much  :-[
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I guess at this point A+ is unaware that the lamp is powered off.
I guess I should re-phrase ... is it possible to display a disconnected state up on a refresh or if a connection attempt fails? As displaying an ON or OFF state is misleading ...

Uhm, how is the Almond+ supposed to know that you turned off your ZigBee bulb at the mains switch? That's impossible. The only thing we could report is that the device is offline in a case like this and even that isn't so easy.
Any sensor that has its power source disconnected stops reporting, that's just how it is.

Offline kurt711

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Re: Local control without cloud access
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2014, 04:25:41 pm »
I just wanted to add that one of the best implementation of what is being asked is done by guys at Radio Thermostat. The thermostat can be managed through cloud access when away which ha a delay as cloud server only pings thermostat at set interval but when I'm on same wifi network, it shows communicating directly with thermostat and changes are instant. The app works same on ios and android. Just a suggestion to reach out to them as they have it working well and it would definitely be a great improvement to Almond+ app.

LGNilsson

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Re: Local control without cloud access
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2014, 09:50:55 pm »
For some devices, maybe, like bulbs, as they're mains powered so they can be "pinged". For battery powered devices it's not as easy, as you don't generally "ping" them to preserve battery life, but we're trying to figure out a way of doing this, as it should technically be possible, it's just not that clear how it's done.

absolutely agree in fact I said as much  :-[  I guess I should re-phrase ... is it possible to display a disconnected state up on a refresh or if a connection attempt fails? As displaying an ON or OFF state is misleading ...

 

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