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Securifi Products => Almond+ => Topic started by: AARON on January 06, 2014, 12:23:29 am

Title: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: AARON on January 06, 2014, 12:23:29 am
Is there a real ETA for shipping these?

... I paid in early March 2013... IF these actually get to be before Feb it will have been about 10 months, an ~4 months late.

What this means in the reality is that now, 801..11AC routers are common and often only cost $70 - thus the value proposition is now lower UNLESS  the ZWave & Zigbee home automation is actually really good / polished and is actual Home Automation, not 'device control + some basic scheduling' like what I'm seeing from Revolv and other start-ups promising they will change the world but only delivering less than what I've been doing myself for the past 10 years as an HA DIY hobbyist.

Questions remain... WHAT will be shipped (features/functions/etc) and WHEN?


Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: Mike on January 06, 2014, 04:10:25 am
If you just wanted a common AC router then go get one, the almond+ is capable of so much more,.. even if functionality is limited to device control when it gets shipped, it beats current products im aware of, in cost, size and interface/connectivity. But i do hope, and believe more advanced control wil be possible, at launch or otherwise from (community) updates.

However i have to admit, its getting hard to stay patient,... it would be good to know when the developper units will be shipped and get some updates on HA part of the software.  And i have to agree with aaron, it is getting time to get some sort of eta.
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: AARON on January 06, 2014, 10:29:13 am
We need an firm ETA.. AND a feature/functionality list.

Exactly, what am I getting for my $100 ... we've seen NOTHING on this product. It is vapor-ware at this point.  There are many new competitors in the HA market now and more in the horizon - all removing anything compelling about Almond+ since (a) there is nothing in hand and (b) nothing even shown for features & functionality.
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: LGNilsson on January 07, 2014, 02:42:32 am
Easy now boys and girls, no need to get up in arms over things  ;)

I'm in Las Vegas at the moment, having just set up all our demos for CES which officially starts tomorrow morning.
We'll be showing the Almond+ and we'll be demoing the home automation features of it, although I'd be the first to admit that we still have a lot of work to do.

The good news is that we have very quick Z-Wave association and we work with just about every Z-Wave device out there. ZigBee association is a bit slower, but we query the devices and we already support a wide range of devices here too. We have custom controls for most devices already, although this needs a lot of tweaking still in terms of look and feel, but for example, we have dimmer support, power measurement support and thermostat support all up and running and you can control the devices from the touch screen of the Almond+ or our mobile apps. The web UI is still slightly limited in terms of the type of devices it supports, but it's simply a matter of us adding all the various types here, as well as on the mobile app side.

Yes, we're late, but as I explained earlier today on Kickstarter, we've had some unforeseen issues with the platform we changed to, but almost all of those have been resolved by now. Due to the holiday season, we couldn't finish solving all the issues by when we'd hope to have them done, but they should be sorted out this week. We might sound like we're talking crap in our updates and just making excuses as to why we're late, but the Almond+ won't be a run of the mill router and integrating support for all the features we've been requested to add by  our Kickstarter backers (yes, we still have a feature freeze) has taken time. We still need to improve things in the UI, but this is a piece of cake compared to the work we've already put into the Almond+. As of right now, we're focusing on stability, stability and stability. Once we've reached that, then we'll start adding all the fancy stuff and some promised features won't be delivered until after you've received your hardware.

Keep in mind that we issue regular updates, unlike most other router makers. We've added a lot of new features to the Almond over its life span and we'll still be adding more things for that platform. With the Almond+ we have vastly improved hardware and as such, a much better base for adding new features over time. We already have a ton of plans for what we want to add to further improve the product, but right now, our goal is to get the Almond+ done as quickly as possible.

We'll be shipping the beta/developer units this month. The only other hurdle we have to overcome right now, is to get the Almond+ certified for all the regions we have backers in and this is something that will take time and that we can't skip, as it's a legal requirement. This is also one of those things where we have zero control over how long time it'll take as these things are done by independent labs and we're not the only ones doing these types of tests. That said, our current goal is to get the Almond+ out before the end of this quarter and I honestly believe that it shouldn't be a problem.

We're truly sorry about all the delays, but we didn't expect to run into many of the problems we faced with the new platform, but I also believe we'll have a much better router than the dime a dozen Broadcom based products out there.
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: AARON on January 07, 2014, 12:02:45 pm
Hi Lars,
I'm not really upset, much, that it is late. It is that, then you add to it we've not seen any feature set list for the HA side. I could not care less on the wifi/router side as they all function the same and that is not why I put my $ in... I put it in hoping the HA platform would be solid.

I run a Vera3 (Zwave) and an ISY 944i (Insteon) and have been an HA hobbyist for 15 years.  Really looking for the 'next' thing. Most "Home Automation" coming to market is not HA, it is 'Home Control' ... with very little actual automation. The units I run are true automation systems, that also allow manual control (Android, iOS, web, etc)

I'd like to know things such as...
What does the automation actions/rules/programs allow you to do?  ... beyond the basic time/date schedules
How is it programmed? ...  Built-in GUI using IF/Then/Else? Python? etc
How complex can the automation be? Variables, state checks, etc.
What about 3rd party integrations using REST, CURL, etc?
What about mobile apps for control?
... and so on.

Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: LGNilsson on January 08, 2014, 02:27:52 am
I wish I could answer all your questions, but I can't, simply because the software isn't finished yet.
We have plans for things, but a lot of things are like to change based on user feedback from people like you.
I have a Vera Lite at home and in as much as it has some powerful features, it's also got a horrid user experience imho.
I meet with Insteon at CES today and we'll have a proper chat with those guys, but it's not impossible that we might add some kind of support in the future for at least the wireless Insteon standard, or at the very least, do some kind of integration for their control hub.

What I can tell you though is that at the moment, we only have simple on/off or dimming control for most devices, although things like power measurement readout works on some devices, but most likely not all, as this is quite devices specific. Why nothing else? Well, because this is the core functionality that really needs to work well and be stable and this is our focus right now. Adding/removing devices is done via a unified UI for both ZigBee and Z-Wave and this works extremely well via the touch screen and it's dead easy to use with most sensors, unless they have a complex means of initializing association.

Long term, the plan is to offer something similar to IFTTT, but as this isn't done yet, I'm not quite sure how it'll work. It won't be IFTTT as such, but the plan is to do our own version of something like it. Theses things alongside schedules, will be done via the web UI or the mobile apps.
We will have an iOS app which we've already posted a short video off and as mentioned, we also have a web app that's platform agnostic and we also have an Android app in the works.

Sadly, the only thing I can promise is that we'll unveil these things as they're finished off and then we'll make changes as needed/requested. We want to make the Almond+ meet your requirements in as much as possible and we know it won't be perfect from launch. We will also have an SDK, but it'll require some programming know how in C++. That said, most of you shouldn't have to consider this as an option.

I can only ask you guys to please be patient with us and let us get you the product to start with and then we can work together to make it work the way you want it to. Does this sound like a fair deal?
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: dbuttke on January 18, 2014, 01:02:09 pm
Fair deal  suppose, but keep the info coming.  Something is better than nothing in this case.

Where is the video that you promised the week of CES?
Progress reports would be nice.
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: LGNilsson on January 18, 2014, 11:21:21 pm
Sorry, I haven't had time to edit and upload it yet, as sadly no-one else in the office can edit video.

As things are looking right now, the beta units will be going out on time, but we still have a bit of work to do before mass production.
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: Talard on January 19, 2014, 04:39:42 am
Fair deal  suppose, but keep the info coming.  Something is better than nothing in this case.

Where is the video that you promised the week of CES?
Progress reports would be nice.

Yes please! We can't have the product yet so please let us see what we will recived in order to be patient!

As things are looking right now, the beta units will be going out on time, but we still have a bit of work to do before mass production.
Are you saying that for non devloppers backers, the Almond+ won't be shipped in the end of February ?

I think this post is represent all backers witch pay to be a part of a great project, but we have almost no new informations since Kickstarter.
Please, consinder people who trade idees with you in forum, witch help in order to support a product they belive in and send us simple informations as "whene the product will be shiped" at leaste. If you coulden't i think you can open a post with informations in real time on what is waiting fo somting, why and when do you expect to solve it, or what tasks are still waiting before shipped units...

In simple word, we just want to keep in touch in order to help us to wait.

Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: LGNilsson on January 19, 2014, 07:43:39 am
This is the current situation:

We've made a pilot run of boards, these are going out to the beta and developer backers in two batches, starting with the beta guys, as the SDK for the developers need a little bit more work, so the developer units won't be shipped until after Chinese New Year (manufacturing is done in Taiwan), but the beta units will go out before Chinese New Year.
These units will be slightly different from the final units and won't feature the same spit and polish in terms of the casing etc. as they're pre-production units.

We're working on getting all the certifications done, as we need to meet a lot of legal requirements to be able to ship the final products and this takes a fair amount of time to do and it's somewhat out of our hands as we have to book times at third party test labs for this and if they're busy, we simply have to wait on our turn. We also need to get Z-Wave and ZigBee certification done and although we can do all these things in parallel, it takes time to get this done.

Once all the certifications have been done, we'll go into mass production and as soon as this happens, we'll be posting an update on Kickstarter and send out the survey there with regards to the final mass production units that all of our backers from $95 and up will receive.  However, as we don't have an exact date today as to when we'll go into mass production, it doesn't make sense to give you a date that we can't guarantee, as we don't want to make another promise that we can't deliver on. We do believe that we'll be able to start shipping the retail units before the end of this quarter, but keep in mind that we have three major SKU's (North America, Europe and APAC) and five different colour options, so there'll be a lot of logistics work on our side to get everything shipped correctly.

It's easy to tell us what and how we should do things, but please keep in mind that we're not D-Link, Asus or Netgear, we're a very small player in the market and we do have limited resources. We're of course using those as well as we can and our focus is now 110% on the Almond+ and getting it out to all of our backers. Once that's done, the hard work is far from over, as that's when we start working with our backers at improving things, adding new features and what not.

Please be patient, things are coming together and we're sorry that they've taken longer time than we initially anticipated, but it's been more work to get the new platform to a production ready state than we expected, many due to some issues between our main chipset partners, but these are now resolved and we just have some finetuning to do.
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: AARON on January 19, 2014, 10:21:23 am
Lars,
I appreciate you being honest with us as of late. This, and much more, information should have been provided long ago. Remember the "Estimated delivery: Sep 2013" was provided on Kickstarter.  Now what I'm reading from your post there is a ton of work still left and are you are predicting to get it all done in 2 months (~6 months late), this seems unlikely provided your track record on predictions and delivery.

Even if it ships this Qtr, I'm reading the system will be a wifi router with only a barebones developer kit / minimal API, and only basic features for Home Automation (more like basic Home Control & not HA at all)

I understand how these things get developed... really I do. Things slip, but it is clear your team bit off way more than you could chew. You should have kept it simple (one country, one color, no BS). You should have focused on product, not logistics.  I have no clue what you've been doing all this time? Your base is OpenWRT and looked to be running back in June - 7 months doing what?

I'm close to losing complete faith in this product being viable for Home Automation (beyond just limited/basic home control) anytime soon after launch, and potentially it may be too late to be competitive in the market anyway... vs the likes of Revolv, Smarthings, Staples Hub, Lowes Iris, and several others that have a huge head start. I don't see how you will win developers, let alone a large enough user community?

You'd need to have an amazing value proposition, ease of community development (requiring C++ means you don't) and marketing campaign to make up lost ground... all of which I also don't have faith you can do or have the expertise to do given your recent track record.

I did not throw $100 a this just to complain - I wanted it to success. Heck, I still do. But your lack of any real communication until very recently, the lack of any detailed feature list, and the clear lack of ease of development for the user community is all unbelievably disappointing.  You should have talked to and listened to your investors.- brought them into the process from Day 1.

Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: LGNilsson on January 19, 2014, 11:26:51 am
We did provide this info back in May in update #12 and added more details in update #18 and #20 on Kickstarter.
The estimated delivery date can not be updated, as it's part of the campaign that is now locked.

Colours and country has nothing to do with the delays, that's merely a shipping/logistics issue, sorry if I wasn't clear on this, what I meant was that we might not get all units out by the end of this quarter due to this, as we're only so many people in the Taiwan office due to the main part of our team being in our Indian office and doing software development (as well as support and a few other things). As such, this is a huge task for us to handle and something we have to work out in a smart way. We'll most likely hire extra staff to help with the shipment though, so this shouldn't be a concern at this point in time.

OpenWRT was running, but we had a bare system back then without the NutsOS additions, no Wi-Fi, no home automation, no LCD support, pretty much nothing was in place, so our software team has had a huge task in front of them to integrate all of this and make it work. No, we won't be shipping a useless product, it'll be a fully functional router with all the features you'd come to expect from us, but yes, we might not have all the home automation features there on day one, but this is also why we're working on getting out the beta units as soon as possible so we can get the feedback we need from those backers. We have plans for what we need to get done and most of that should be in place by the time you get your unit. However, will it be what you want/expected/need? I don't know, as I don't know what kind of setup you want to build or already have in place.

Have you tried Revolv? I have and they're in a far worse place than we are, I'd suggest reading a few reviews from actual users of it, but just such a simple thing like the inability to deassociate sensors is just crazy. Lowe's Iris as I already mentioned is far from a good product and you have to pay them $10 a month to get full functionality. SmartThings isn't bad, but they lack support for more than half of the sensors I tried to use with their hub, i.e. anything with ZigBee that wasn't made by them. Staples Connect I haven't had a chance to try, so I can't say too much, but I spoke to a guy that works for Vera at CES and he said it was pretty awful. Do we want to end up in this segment? No, not at all, that would be a nightmare and we really want to avoid that. What you read was meant mainly for the beta/dev guys and I'm sorry if that wasn't clear, but admittedly I don't believe will be able to deliver everything we've promised on day one. That said, we will have a product that at least will have fully working basics, which is more than I can say about some of our competitors and I'm honestly not out to try to throw dirt at them, as I have no reason to do so, but they have at least as much, if not more work to do than we have.

The SDK is based on C++, but it's not meant for everyone. As I'm not based with the software team, I don't have a 100% insight on what they're working on, but I know there will be a friendly way of creating scenes, schedules and events. It's not something we can skip, as it would make for a very poor home automation product and considering that this is something we'll be focusing more on from here on in as a company, if we fail with the Almond+, we're pretty much done for.

I'd be interested in knowing who you think are our competitors, as although the Almond+ won't retail for $99, it'll still be a competitive product in the market, as the home automation part will be literally "free" since all the devices you mentioned, requires a router to work and many of them aren't exactly cheap and/or require a monthly plan to work properly. Are we going to have a flawless, perfect product on day one? Most likely not, but it'll be easier to use than any competing product I've used to date.

We've been providing regular updates on Kickstarter, the forum has been live for a few months and we're always available via email, so I'm not sure how you can say we don't communicate. I'm sitting here on a Sunday night replying to your questions as I think it's important that we keep things as clear and straight with our backers as possible. That said, we did make a promise we couldn't deliver on due to a wide range of issues that we had to solve with our chipset partners and that took far longer than we anticipated and it's something we've learnt from for the future. Was it a mistake to change the platform five months in to the Kickstarter project? Maybe, but at least the Almond+ will be a product I'll be happy to use and one I hope you guys will also be happy to use, rather than something that wouldn't meet your expectations at all and that would've had a lot of limitations due to the choice of hardware components.

I do have to say that I think you're being a bit unfair, as we have informed all of our backers about what would take place, we simply underestimated the time it would take us to have a fully working solution based on the new platform. We even offered a refund back in May and we continue to offer refunds to anyone that asks for one. Yes, refunds aren't the same as delivering on a promised product and we truly are sorry about the delays, it's equally frustrating on our side though, so please, be patient and we'll get there very soon. 

I'm not sure if this will put your mind at ease or cause even more frustration, but I'm as eager as our backers to get my hands on the final product. In fact, I joined the company in April, so I had no involvement in the actual Kickstarter process, but I'd seen the product and it was partially why I applied for a position with Securifi as I believed it was an interesting and sound product. Yes, I get to test things in the office, but I don't have a unit at home yet and I'm not even going to have one ahead of the beta backers. They'll be the people we'll be working with to hopefully make the Almond+ more into the product you want and expect, regardless of our current plans, as we'll be listen on the feedback from those guys until the day we go into mass production and beyond.

I can only apologize again for the delays, but I do honestly believe it'll be worth the wait.
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: GatorEye on January 19, 2014, 12:06:34 pm
A few comments from a developer point of view. It's hard to read someone's feeling in a post, so my comments are coming from a point of disappointment instead of anger.

As a developer backer I thought I would have had a beta unit long before now with the SDK ready to go. You comment that the retail units should be coming within a month or so of the dev units doesn't make sense to me. Why should I have spent that much money to get a beta unit when the production run is going to be right on the heels of it?

I would have thought the beta units with a fully developed API would have been in the hands of developer and beta level backers a while ago with many months of testing and developing to help flush out the bugs and add minor enhancements before the final release. Instead it appears little to any of the HA features are done (which is why people are buying this in the first place). The robust HA features should have been done by now. Enhancing the router features to me seems pointless. If I want a router, I'd buy the Almond (or something else). Well actually I won't because I already have a router, as do most people. 

It just sounds like little to no thought or progress has been made on the HA hub and no release of the API makes me really nervous. I was expecting a fully feature functional HA hub in the dev unit but it seems like you are far from that.

Not only that but a C++ API is about the least user friendly language you could have selected from the myriad of languages out there today.  Although I guess it was made because you are dealing with the low level hardware, but a higher level abstraction would have been nice. You tangentially address that with a "friendly" way to create services, etc. but as a developer, I'd like to know what that is.

As a developer level backer, I'd expect your developers to be present in the developer forums by now with API examples and answering pretty much any question I have. What is the "friendly" way of creating services and schedules. Again I thought that was the purpose of spending the money to be a developer level backer - that I'd have access to your developers well before the final units ship.

I hope the product will advance rapidly once it gets in the wild, but honestly I'm disappointed at this point. Of course, I could change my opinion once I get my hands on it.

I will say you have been excellent in your communication on kickstarter and here in the forums and I commend you for that. That is your best chance at attracting and keeping a loyal following. Other kickstarter projects could clearly learn from you in that regard. Honesty (even if it's something we don't want to hear) is better than lying or saying nothing at all, so that's why I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that this product will make it.  Your communication has for the most part been excellent. The problem is, I want to hear the same level from the developers.

Thanks!
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: AARON on January 19, 2014, 12:10:39 pm
Lars (and GatorEye),
Notice I have not ask for a refund. I'm disappointed, not at all angry - just passionate maybe :)

I agree with GatorEye's comments.

I do want this to succeed and I still want to be part of that. I have a ton of HA experience, and a good amt of product development/marketing/etc - I never expected Almond+ to be a market lead from launch. Both the router and HA space it tough, lots of competition. I don't see much value of having yet another router in the market (you've seen Cisco recently divest) - too many big names, and very good product already filling that space.

There is a ton of value to have a great HA solution. I own/use Vera3 and ISY-944i (plus used many other apps like mControl, Homeseer, etc for years). Nothing yet is perfect, of course. I believe this space is just starting to take off and first comers (even lack-luster performance from the likes of Revolv, Iris, etc) show there is a great DIY demand. But those guys don't get it yet - but they have first comer advantage, and a lot of marketing/press to help gain acceptance. Today, Vera is as close as we can get to 'perfect' DIY HA solution (device + software) today - Homeseer is probably the best PC app.  I'd like to see A+ one up them... the key to this is to engage your community to assist (Vera's major gap is not doing this).  There are great developers and hack-coders (myself included) willing to make a good product much better.  We will need more that an SDK with C++ interface... we need thins that are much easier to use, like Python, LUA, etc.

When I talk about giving us more info/detail this is what I speak of... what interfaces will we have to code to, what HA features/functions will be ready at launch and then the roadmaps shortly there-after, will there be a way for user code to get published to the masses (like Vera's free app store), etc ... this way we can prepare to fill gaps with community based code.

If these things have been thought out... tell us.  If they have not, engage us to help you design what needs to be in place to make this not just successful... but game changing.
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: GatorEye on January 19, 2014, 12:43:51 pm
I echo AARON. It really sounds like you've let people push the router features.  If you want a place at the table, you need to tout and enhance the HA features and give it a robust easy to use API. Again - you want an advanced router, make an Almond v2. This shouldn't be the product for that.

I use Homeseer myself. The one I'd watch out for is Fibaro. They are just starting to enter the US market as they seem established overseas since they are based in Poland and they have a lot of really interesting sensors - slick marketing, and from what I've seen, a pretty good API that uses LUA.

Frankly you will get swept away or under the carpet if you can't make this easy for developers and non-developers to enhance. Unfortunately I don't see anything that leads me to believe that...yet.
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: Talard on January 19, 2014, 07:15:27 pm
Lars,

Just to be clear, i woulden't say your communication was bad, cause it's not the case! Updates are regular, and thx to the forum, we know we can always expect an answer when we post somthing!
I thanks you too for honest i'd ask before.

Now, i enderstand GatorEye and AARON talk about focus on HA part than Rooter one. I'm not specialized in devlopper matter but in network. That is perhaps the reason i think, bring a product with good HA part and/or an good rooter part is wainting for backers. It is really interesting to associate this two world that will fusion in the futur. As i already say in a post, bring a product that can use HA with computing network is really interesting (but it's not the point here). So I'm waiting as much as HA, as rooter on the Almond+ in order to do network security/managment and enter in HA world in practice for a good price! 95$ is really cheap for this type of product and i think HA have to be accessible for everyone.

I wait for the Almond+ and will continue to read the forum often in order to exchange with Securifi and the community. When i found your project i'd know the diffrence with buy a product witch is already finalised.
I want help to improve this product but for me it won't be in developping matters!

We keep in touch! :-D
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: Patrick Wilson on January 19, 2014, 08:31:05 pm
I echo AARON. It really sounds like you've let people push the router features.  If you want a place at the table, you need to tout and enhance the HA features and give it a robust easy to use API. Again - you want an advanced router, make an Almond v2. This shouldn't be the product for that.

I use Homeseer myself. The one I'd watch out for is Fibaro. They are just starting to enter the US market as they seem established overseas since they are based in Poland and they have a lot of really interesting sensors - slick marketing, and from what I've seen, a pretty good API that uses LUA.

Frankly you will get swept away or under the carpet if you can't make this easy for developers and non-developers to enhance. Unfortunately I don't see anything that leads me to believe that...yet.

The goal of the Almond+ is to provide a high end product that supports both high-end Router functions and Home Automation features in a single package.   We have been working very hard at creating a product that meets both of these goals.   (If you review all our Kickstarter updates,  you'll see some of challenges encountered along the way.

Some of our backers have been frustrated with some of the delays in getting our new Almond+ product into production,  but I'm pretty sure everyone will be happy with the final product.  Our final Almond+ product will far exceed the original specifications we published in our initial Kickstarter offering.  I'm sure you'll be impressed with the final product. 

I'll defer to Lars to address your comments about the potential for an "Almond v2" product.  (I'm not involved in future product development). 

 

Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: AARON on January 19, 2014, 09:00:13 pm
Patrick,
It is nice to see you and Lars interacting with the community. And I'm positive you, and team, are working on what you believe is better than the original spec - I'm sure it is. The gap is not the goal, or even the delays so much... but when you add the delays to the lack of information about what the product will actually be when it is delivered, it does not instill confidence - it actually depletes it.

I suspect most backers (and potential buyers) could care less about "high-end Router functions". Today we get can buy many high-quality routers for pennies (like $20-50) and put on DDWRT, Tomato, Merlin, etc. I use a 4 year old Belkin 802.11n router with Tomato installed that gives me far more than 99% of people need or want. I've also purchased a $120 Netgear R6300 to test... besides a bit more range it is no better than the $20 (current price) Belkin+Tomato. Seriously, with respect, if you are focusing on the router you are wasting time.

I and others have posted several times exactly what information would constitute helpful communications... it seems your team is unable or unwilling to provide it. I'll stop asking for it as it seems all you and team can say is ... "its going to be great" ... which only makes things worse.
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: GatorEye on January 19, 2014, 09:13:39 pm
The goal of the Almond+ is to provide a high end product that supports both high-end Router functions and Home Automation features in a single package.   We have been working very hard at creating a product that meets both of these goals.

Some of our backers have been frustrated with some of the delays in getting our new Almond+ product into production,  but I'm pretty sure everyone will be happy with the final product.  Our final Almond+ product will far exceed the original specifications we published in our initial Kickstarter offering.  I'm sure you'll be impressed with the final product. 

I don't think anyone is buying your product primarily as a high end router. Seriously. Make a device that will make it easy to do home automation. 99.9% of people don't care about high end router functions and if they do...do as I said and make an Almond v2 that is just a high end router.

I'm not frustrated with the delay per se. I understand and agree with why they were done. I'm frustrated that:


Basically I'm trying to figure out why I spent so much for the developer backing level if I'm not going to get to see an early prototype well before anyone else sees it and gets to work with the API before it goes public.  Is the API only going to be limited to developer level backers?

I'm anxious to support you, but try to see things from my point of view given I backed you at the most expensive level. AT LEAST give devs access to the API you have at this point. After all you did promise early access to the SDK so I don't think it's too much to ask at a minimum to expose the SDK in the dev forums and get your developers in there to answer questions about it. The HA API should have been well flushed out before the hardware changes you made so I don't see why the extensive delay in releasing them.

I think we're all anxious to help make this a great product, but at this point, we don't have anything to work with.
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: LGNilsson on January 19, 2014, 09:51:47 pm
Where to start...

We're a router company and the largest share of our Kickstarter backers seem to have pitched in because they wanted an affordable 802.11ac router, which was exactly what the original Almond+ hardware would've offered at that point in time, as at $99 back in early 2013, it was a great deal as a router, let alone as a router with home automation features tacked on.

That said, we can't deliver a half baked product and I will be discussing all your concerns with our software team today and see what we can do to improve what we already have in time for the mass production units shipping.

With regards to the dev units, we only ever said we'd deliver them 2-3 months ahead of the remaining units and although it looks like we'll fall slightly short on this promise, I can only apologize here about that and hope we can make up for lost time. Again, I need to get the software team involved with regards to the API and get at least the SDK out to you guys ASAP.

It's not a matter of the router functions being flushed out, in fact, we had both Z-Wave and ZigBee working way before we had Wi-Fi working, due to the issues we've had with our chipset partners.
We have an LCD UI up and running that allows for easy association and deassociation of sensors, something I think a lot of you will appreciate once you get your units, as it makes it a breeze to add and remove sensors. We also have an LCD UI that works with a wide range of sensors and devices, but it's not "pretty" at this point in time. On top of that we have working iOS and Android apps (with the Android one needing a bit more spit and polish in terms of looks) as well as a web UI that works on just about any platform that supports a modern web browser. In fact, I was demoing our setup at CES using the web app and you can see a picture of it in this article from Anandtech http://www.anandtech.com/show/7700/securifis-almond-platform-update-integrates-cortina-soc-with-qca-radios

The SDK will be limited to the developer backers for what I would guess will be the first six months or so, but again, I have to apologize here, as I don't have the full details on hand, but I know we're planning on opening it up to anyone interested in the future. You do get two Almond+ routers as well as a set of four sensors for your additional investment, plus actually SDK support from our software team, something that I don't think we're planning on giving non developer backers that wants to use the SDK in the future. That said, let me get this clarified and I'll get back to you with the full details.

I'll also discuss getting the SDK uploaded ASAP, as this is something I've been pushing for, but I'm not in charge of this, but at least now I have some very valid reasoning as to why this should already have been done. I feel like I'm only making excuses as to why things haven't been done here, but please believe me when I say that I'm very much pushing for a lot of things to happen, but as I'm not in charge of the product development, it's hard sometimes to convince the software team where they should be spending their resources.

I'm glad to hear that you guys are still keen on getting started with the Almond+ though and I'll discuss how we can improve things on our side from here on in, as we clearly have slipped up in some areas. I'm also going to request that there's a dedicated member of the software team that checks in regularly in the forums to discuss things like this with you guys in the developer forums, as again, this was something that was meant to have been done some time ago, but haven't happened.

I'll be reporting back in this thread later today (local time) to let you know how the meeting went.
 
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: GatorEye on January 19, 2014, 10:12:50 pm
Lars thanks for the feedback. I guess as a developer level backer I'd like to be seeing all the unfinished and unpolished stuff. After all that's really what I was paying for - to get in the mud and play and provide feedback while it's still dirty.  I don't care what's unfinished or doesn't look good. I don't EXPECT it to be finished or polished. I guess you could argue that's alpha vs. beta but I don't think anyone cares.  We want our hands on something...anything. That's pretty much the point.

Again - I have NO problem pushing it back to get the hardware right. I'm just saying by now you should have enough of the functionality and API done to get the dev backers a look at it. If you aren't to that point yet, I don't see how you'll be shipping a finished product anytime soon.  And again, if nothing else, get one of your devs in the forums so we can start hammering him with questions.  That will keep the barbarians from storming the gate. ;D

Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: LGNilsson on January 20, 2014, 12:11:53 am
It's all understood and as I said, I've scheduled a meeting for this afternoon (again local time) to discuss this with our software team. I wish I was enough of a programmer to help out, but I'm afraid it's something I realized quite quickly that I'd never be great at, even though I did study it at one point in my life.

The hardware is actually mostly done by now and so is all of the basic HA stuff, but we still have some work done on the Wi-Fi side of things which should be done in the next couple of days. From here on in, we'll start adding features and this is when we need to make sure that you guys have received the promised hardware, SDK etc. as well as start interacting with out software team.
I'll be here to help out with what I can, but there's a limit to my abilities.
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: LGNilsson on January 20, 2014, 06:09:08 am
Ok, so here's what was discussed.

1. SDK - We're using our own SDK constantly for the product development, however, the reason we haven't released it yet comes down to two things 1. the SDK is continually being changed as we develop the product and 2. it's not documented properly as yet. As for the 14th of February I've been told that we should have a version for our developer level backers and it'll be exclusive to them for a yet to be determined period of time. The developer level backers will also get access to our software team at this point in time. I'm sorry this is very late, but this is the current situation.

2. API - We have an internal API based on LUA, it was never meant for public consumption, but that's now being looked at as something that will be released, but it'll require some extra work and we'd rather hold off doing this until we've shipped all the units to our backers. It's also lacking documentation and this is a project that will take some time to finish off, but as it's clearly wanted, I'll push for this to be done.

3. Most of you have hopefully seen our web app by now and although this is currently relying on our cloud service, but as we've promised, there will be a local version of the web app and this is something that none of our competitors can claim to offer today with the exception of the Vera guys. With the SDK you will technically be able to build your own local cloud setup and that should as far as I understood correctly, be able to work with the local web app.

I don't think this is what you guys wanted to hear, but we're working on getting things done and I hope you can see from this that we're listening to feedback.

I missed the part about not wasting our time on making a good router and that 99.9% of people don't care about this, but this is simply not true. In fact, most of the backers that have wanted a refund so far (this is still a very very small amount of backers btw) have all said they don't need their Almond+ any more, because they've gotten a new router already. Add to this that we've made some pretty good integration between the router part and the home automation part and there's a reason to use the Almond+ as a router. Admittedly it'll also work just fine in range extender or access point mode with the home automation features.

Did you guys see the short video from CES that I posted on Kickstarter? It does show a little bit more with regards to where we were a couple of weeks ago.
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: GatorEye on January 20, 2014, 06:53:03 am
Ok, so here's what was discussed.

1. SDK - We're using our own SDK constantly for the product development, however, the reason we haven't released it yet comes down to two things 1. the SDK is continually being changed as we develop the product and 2. it's not documented properly as yet. As for the 14th of February I've been told that we should have a version for our developer level backers and it'll be exclusive to them for a yet to be determined period of time. The developer level backers will also get access to our software team at this point in time. I'm sorry this is very late, but this is the current situation.

2. API - We have an internal API based on LUA, it was never meant for public consumption, but that's now being looked at as something that will be released, but it'll require some extra work and we'd rather hold off doing this until we've shipped all the units to our backers. It's also lacking documentation and this is a project that will take some time to finish off, but as it's clearly wanted, I'll push for this to be done.

3. Most of you have hopefully seen our web app by now and although this is currently relying on our cloud service, but as we've promised, there will be a local version of the web app and this is something that none of our competitors can claim to offer today with the exception of the Vera guys. With the SDK you will technically be able to build your own local cloud setup and that should as far as I understood correctly, be able to work with the local web app.

I don't think this is what you guys wanted to hear, but we're working on getting things done and I hope you can see from this that we're listening to feedback.

Did you guys see the short video from CES that I posted on Kickstarter? It does show a little bit more with regards to where we were a couple of weeks ago.

It seems that the stuff for developers is late coming but at least now you've given us some hope so I'm ok with that. I'd rather know than not know. I personally doubt I'd do anything with the C++ API and at least it will give me a month or so to learn LUA. :)

Item #3 is the entire reason I bought the Almond+ (no cloud requirement) so for me that's kind of the tipping point. I won't be doing anything with it until I can do everything locally in my own cloud. THAT is your selling point to HA enthusiasts.

Everything looked good in the video you posted. What was the model of that Sylvania Osram bulb? Was it WiFi/Zigbee?  Of all the bulbs of that sort is that the one you'd recommend? I've been wanting to purchase something (starting in my kitchen) but have been waiting to see what the Almond+ would work with and what actually looks good and works good. Granted it seems someone is coming out with some new bulb all the time. But since they are so expensive, I want to make the right choice the first time.

Thanks for continuing the open lines of communication. It's a big bonus you have that in your favor and will also give you an edge!
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: eldaria on January 20, 2014, 07:35:20 am
Hmm, I backed this project not so much for the Router features, but rather for the "HA baked into a powerful router at an affordable price" package deal thing.
If I wanted a powerful router only, then I have plenty of leftover hardware lying around that I could build a Linux router out of, If I wanted only HA I could go with one of the existing platforms, probably I would have gone with Fibaro's system. But I really like the Almond+ due to the compact design, touch screen and all in one packaging.

Today my home is routed with an Apple Time Capsule, so easy to use, not so much to configure. I wished I could configure VPN and other more advanced features, but it is not really the most important thing for me.
My plan is that when the Almond+ arrives, I'm going to put a rather big sum of money into buying devices to hook onto it and start automating my apartment. So for me the HA feature of this device is my main reason for getting it.

I picked the developer level to get early access to the test hardware and software, I like to tinker and hack. I like to test stuff and experiment. I'm no software developer as such, I do not know C++ very well, I can navigate my way around Python, various scripting languages and such, but nothing advanced. I mean it also includes the final unit in the pledge level so I never expected the developer version of the hardware to be a final product, especially not on the software/firmware side of things. I even pledged extra for an extra final unit as I did not expect the early developer version to be a reliable final product.

I actually even thought that Developer level would be earlier access than Beta level, but I know that it was listed as being same shipping time.
It makes more sense than what you now stated, that Developers have to wait longer than Beta? This to me is the wrong way around. To me, Beta testers would be testing what developers create.

Anyway, I'm a bit sad we missed the x-mas mark of things, I would have liked to show of my new stuff to the family. And I could have gotten the sensors and stuff from santa. ;-) But anyway I'm still very much looking forward to receiving my devices.
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: AARON on January 20, 2014, 11:59:59 am
2. API - We have an internal API based on LUA
DEFINITELY NEEDED...
Several coders from the Vera community backed A+. This will allow Vera coders to have an easier migration to coding for A+
Is there any windows/linux based emulator people can run to build/test code before the device is available?


3. Most of you have hopefully seen our web app by now and although this is currently relying on our cloud service, but as we've promised, there will be a local version of the web app and this is something that none of our competitors can claim to offer today with the exception of the Vera guys. With the SDK you will technically be able to build your own local cloud setup and that should as far as I understood correctly, be able to work with the local web app.
Yup, also a requirement for more savvy DIYers. I know many, including myself, that will not buy a subscription service and/or be dependent on an internet connection/service to be available. As we all know, they go down even the big boys... Amazon, MSFT, etc.

I missed the part about not wasting our time on making a good router and that 99.9% of people don't care about this, but this is simply not true. In fact, most of the backers that have wanted a refund so far (this is still a very very small amount of backers btw) have all said they don't need their Almond+ any more, because they've gotten a new router already. Add to this that we've made some pretty good integration between the router part and the home automation part and there's a reason to use the Almond+ as a router. Admittedly it'll also work just fine in range extender or access point mode with the home automation features.

You somewhat validated my point here. The value proposition you had (past tense) for good quality bargain priced AC router is dead - for the reasons I already stated, thus you are seeing the majority of people asking for refunds stating exactly that. NOW, today and going forward... A+ value proposition is 99% based on Home Automation.  Having a built-in router is nice for some but for savvy techs actually a detractor. Most techies know yo should separate functions for mission critical devices. If they are combined, when I do maintenance on one (firmware, reboot, etc) I now have an outage for both... and if something goes wrong (device bricks, physically dies, etc) I'm screwed.  Convergence sounds great, in theory, but when things go wrong you quickly hate yourself for it.

Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: LGNilsson on January 20, 2014, 09:52:37 pm
Actually, if you go and look at the latest Kickstarter update, you'll see that most of the comments are about router performance and not HA, so I guess your assessment here is incorrect.
That said, yes, the HA features are a value proposition and that was always the idea with the Almond+.

I know our software team is working on a means to not only just back up your router settings, just as any other router out there, but also the sensor settings, so in case your Almond+ was to fail, it should be possible to restore all the settings, including any connected sensors. I hope this will be done before we ship the final units, but it's a little bit tricky to do due to how the sensors are associated. This should at least help with your concerns that you have a more integrated device and in case something fails, you'll have more of a hassle to get things back up and running again.

It would be interested to know how many Vera coders we have, although from my understanding after having talked to our software team, due to the very different hardware and software architecture, it won't be a straightforward recompile to make Vera apps work on the Almond+. I guess the biggest issue is that the Vera is MIPS based, we're ARM Cortex-A9 based and the two are quite different to write software for.
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: AARON on January 21, 2014, 01:17:53 am
I know our software team is working on a means to not only just back up your router settings, just as any other router out there, but also the sensor settings, so in case your Almond+ was to fail, it should be possible to restore all the settings, including any connected sensors. I hope this will be done before we ship the final units, but it's a little bit tricky to do due to how the sensors are associated. This should at least help with your concerns that you have a more integrated device and in case something fails, you'll have more of a hassle to get things back up and running again.
Backup/restore is commonplace with any system. If it does not have this, it does not meet minimum standards that anyone I know would accept.This does not address the two issues I mentioned...
1) maintenance requires taking both HA & Wifi offline.
2) a dead Almond+ is really 2 dead devices (1 router + 1 HA) ... today, everyone has 2 separate devices, if one goes down, the other still runs. Thus, if my router dies, my Vera is up - and  my HA & security system is still running. If my Vera dies, my Wifi is still up. In an Almond+ only world, they both die at the same time if the hardware dies.

I'm not saying it will happen. But the odds of 2 separate devices failing at the same time is very low vs 1 device. Maybe you can design an active-passive cluster of Almond+ devices - now that would be a router feature no one has brought to the home market ;-)

btw... will the router have the ability to fail-over the internet connection? Say to a 4G MiFi/hotspot?  Again, that is a high-end feature most routers don't have and would put Almond+ in a different league than most (not all, some do have that).  I'm still trying to figure out what high-end routing features will make Almond+ different than any other router?   My apologies if I missed this on an update somewhere.

It would be interested to know how many Vera coders we have, although from my understanding after having talked to our software team, due to the very different hardware and software architecture, it won't be a straightforward recompile to make Vera apps work on the Almond+. I guess the biggest issue is that the Vera is MIPS based, we're ARM Cortex-A9 based and the two are quite different to write software for.

... This is only an issue for C++ and exactly why LUA should be the main focus for apps for A+. There will always be a need for some porting for code from one platform to another but LUA is much easier for a non-professional to deal with than C++.  And, everything for Vera is in LUA and Java.

Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: LGNilsson on January 21, 2014, 02:05:47 am
Well, besides the Vera, show me a single HA controller today that you can backup all the sensors of.
We also have a very fast replacement service where we ship out the replacement unit before asking for the old unit back and as we have an in-house support team, replacements are expedited very quickly.
Yes, failures do happen, but if your router fails, you'll most likely not have access to your HA devices anyhow, at least not once again, unless you're using a Vera.

Yes, we can use a MiFi device (WWAN on the current Almond) and we'll have support for 3G dongles for internet access, although at the moment I don't think we've implemented active failover.

For LUA, I've already let our CEO know what you guys are saying, but ultimately it's up to him and our software team to work this out.
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: AARON on January 21, 2014, 11:16:17 am
Yes, we can use a MiFi device (WWAN on the current Almond) and we'll have support for 3G dongles for internet access, although at the moment I don't think we've implemented active failover.

... 4G Mifi active fail over is a big PLUS for me. This raises the value prop greatly for me. Even better would be to be able to have it Active/Active so we could load balance or even pre-determine what traffic uses which link first. For instance: traffic to XYZ domain uses this link or all FTP uses that link, etc
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: LGNilsson on January 21, 2014, 08:54:58 pm
It's not impossible to do what you're asking for, but it would require some quite complex routing tables. If you don't mind poking around in OpenWRT or the command line, you should be able to do this, but I'm not saying it'll be easy to do. We might add support for something like this in the future, but it won't be there at launch.
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: Vito on January 24, 2014, 03:18:44 pm
This is the current situation:

We've made a pilot run of boards, these are going out to the beta and developer backers in two batches, starting with the beta guys, as the SDK for the developers need a little bit more work, so the developer units won't be shipped until after Chinese New Year (manufacturing is done in Taiwan), but the beta units will go out before Chinese New Year.
These units will be slightly different from the final units and won't feature the same spit and polish in terms of the casing etc. as they're pre-production units.
...

My concern is around this point that was mentioned earlier.  While I did apply for a Developer account, I also see myself as a beta tester.  I have close to 100 devices that I'm currently using in my house, with my Vera 3 controller.  I absolutely require a period of time to test these devices, to ensure that I can continue to have a house that I can control.  I would rather not wait longer to receive a beta unit just due to the fact that I'm looking to develop a Windows Phone app against it.  I would like to begin testing this device sooner, rather than later - so that I have the opportunity to provide feedback to your team about issues that I find.

-Vito
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: LGNilsson on January 25, 2014, 06:07:04 am
Please see your PM inbox.
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: pete on February 03, 2014, 11:01:23 am
Personally here looking forward to beta testing Almond +.

I am looking very much forward to see what you guys come up with.







Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: niclas on February 03, 2014, 11:27:52 am
Got my Almond+ today, basic installation went very smooth, have a wireless network up and running, and two sensors connected, one at the front door (open/closed) and a movement sensor in another room. Still haven't had time to do any more testing, but happy to have it :)
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: LGNilsson on February 03, 2014, 12:30:55 pm
Good to hear it arrived safely. Please check the beta forums for some additional information.
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: pete on February 03, 2014, 12:46:33 pm
GatorEye,

Curious if you are looking at some sort of conduit to your Homeseer server with the Almond +?
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: GatorEye on February 03, 2014, 05:55:59 pm
GatorEye,

Curious if you are looking at some sort of conduit to your Homeseer server with the Almond +?

I'm still running HS2 and haven't upgraded to HS3 yet. One of the things I was complaining about was lack of webservices support. Then someone provided a script to support web services in HS3 so that is what I'd go with if I went that route. HS3 was too long in coming out, still seems unstable, and the UI still doesn't look great. With a product like Almond+ providing an interface to everything Zwave and Zigbee that would cover most everything for me. The only thing left is replicating the speaker client functionality. At that point HS3 just becomes a glorified scheduler.

I like the ability to have my own UI, own mobile app, and not be dependent on someone else's cloud.  I think HS has a place if you are someone with a mix of various older technologies, but moving forward with things going the way of Zigbee/ZWave/BLE/WiFi I think something like Almond+ with their hardware ability to support these protocols holds more future in the long run. In the past year seeing all the new products that are coming out makes me believe that even more.

At some point I'm sure I'll install HS3, but right now I'm waiting on my Almond+.   :D
Title: Re: REAL ETA on shipping to early backers... and what are we getting!?
Post by: pete on February 04, 2014, 10:37:21 am
Gatoreye,

Yup; here I want to be less cloud dependant or no cloud dependant. 

IE: playing with getting satellite weather maps directly from the NOAA satellites rather than the internet just because I can do it.

That said I do have Zigbee energy stuff right now and multiple Z-Wave networks that I play with but not really use. 

IE: For example relating to Z-Wave have the HS ZTroller, AeonStick, MiCasa, Leviton Z-Wave stuff   Plus base lighting here is UPB; but still have X10 and Insteon running.

I only have Zigbee energy stuff and want to see the Zigbee HA stuff now with the Almond +.

Please include me to test your "stuff" with the Almond + .