Securifi Community Forum
Securifi Products => Almond+ => Topic started by: ThePoorShadow on March 31, 2015, 10:12:45 am
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Hi.
I think that this is ridiculous:
I'm in the same (home) net as the Almond+, but I can't control the bunny thing (sensors through it) as it seems the is no Cloud (?)!!!
I don't think this is acceptable. Imagine the worst case scenario (god forbids).
Securifi goes down, cloud goes down and now I can't control my sensors in my Almond+ through the App.
Does this make any sense??
Shouldn't at lest this infrastructure be aware that both items are in the same network??
Regards!
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The good, bad and ugly of technology! Mobile apps are typically made for controlling home automation from off network (when you are outside). Cloud issue would be ironed out soon enough as we are doing some major upgrades for a more fulfilling experience.
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I believe that the assumption you make ("Mobile apps are typically made for controlling home automation from off network (when you are outside))" is not necessarily true. The first thing I do after I wake up is to use my mobile. If I wake up before sunrise, I have to turn on the hallway lights because it is extremely dark. Also, some days it is colder (or warmer), so I turn the thermostat on from my bed.
Apps like mydlink can detect your local cameras on the same network even when the cloud is down.
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Agreed, it does depend on individual users. I am sure you would agree app for complete Home Automation is a little more complicated than the camera apps designed to do only one kind of job, i.e keep up with the cameras. When it comes to HA, the same app can be used with multiple Almond+ at different locations, so cloud access is a must and I don't think we can replace that with local access only. But to conclude, once the upgrades are through, there should'n be much of an issue, while major crash or breakdowns can't be foreseen.
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Amritendu,
I see your point.
Nevertheless the day starts and (usually) ends at home; even without internet I think the app should work as long as it's connected to the same network as the Almond.
I'm pretty sure that there may be a technical reason for that doesn't happening but to be honest I can't see why.
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Amritendu,
I see your point.
Nevertheless the day starts and (usually) ends at home; even without internet I think the app should work as long as it's connected to the same network as the Almond.
I'm pretty sure that there may be a technical reason for that doesn't happening but to be honest I can't see why.
I'm sure there are technical reasons why talking to the cloud is very different from talking directly to the A+. But I also strongly agree that requiring the cloud is unreasonable, particularly when at home. I use the local WebUI myself -- I just hope that if they can't (or won't) get the app to talk directly to the A+ then they will put a nice mobile interface on the WebUI.
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Agreed!
I've said this in many threads now, but local control should be a must!
It may take some time to deliver, but I sure hope they do it.
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http://blog.smartthings.com/news/smartthings-updates/update-smartthings-hub-v2-hardware/ (http://blog.smartthings.com/news/smartthings-updates/update-smartthings-hub-v2-hardware/)
SmartThings added "local actions" yesterday. But you need new hardware. Hopefully Securifi can do it with only a firmware update.
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http://blog.smartthings.com/news/smartthings-updates/update-smartthings-hub-v2-hardware/ (http://blog.smartthings.com/news/smartthings-updates/update-smartthings-hub-v2-hardware/)
SmartThings added "local actions" yesterday. But you need new hardware. Hopefully Securifi can do it with only a firmware update.
Current hardware certainly has the capability to do this. This can be seen as trivially true as in theory you could log into the router web interface on your phone and perform actions. The app could simply connect through these same bindings (websockets) to perform local actions.
p.s. I personally already do local actions, but that is because I use tasker to send tcp commands to mochad to perform actions. Much less pretty, but it gets the job done.
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Here's the thing. There are two things we are discussing here. One, agree that this feature is required. Two, when and how it can be implemented. If people who work on the product don't believe the local access is required, it is never going to get done.
Going by the recommendations of active posters here and the fact that established brands are offering/plan to offer this. I believe this should be in the future roadmap. Once Securifi agrees, then they can prioritize this and deliver it when they can.
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p.s. I personally already do local actions, but that is because I use tasker to send tcp commands to mochad to perform actions. Much less pretty, but it gets the job done.
Matt, where can I find the doc on the tcp command to do this? Do you have any example Tasker actions you could share?
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The simple solution to this is to just use the web UI in your phone/tablet browser. I have no problems opening Luci in my phone's browser to control lights, check door locks etc from inside my home when the cloud is "having issues" . This is also great for my old Dell Streak, that is stuck running Honeycomb, so I can't install the app, even if I wanted to.
Cloud only is not that uncommon and is pretty much the standard it seems to me.
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The Sensors and Rules do not show up in iPhone Browser.
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I couldn't agree more, I have been having a heck of a time using that cloud app, it's been super buggy the last several weeks. I'd really REALLY appreciate being able to turn off all that third party cloud nonsense and be given access to an API or something and just open the right ports, setup DNS and know it's going to work. So what happens to our routers if your company goes under? What happens if you get DDoS'd by a rival company? I'm not saying cloud isn't a good option, I just think we should get to control the routers we bought. Bought mine back in the beta program and i've been desperately hoping for this sense.
P.S. To any staff, i'd appreciate it if you could shoot off an email asking about the possibility of working this into the near future feature set, or if it's to expensive or you don't see the point then consider a kickstarter to pay for R&D and what not.
Thanks in advanced.
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For me it is about control. I've never signed up for the cloud account or even downloaded the app -- I don't want to depend on an outside resource, and don't want any unnecessary access (security hole) on my system. At home I use the WebUI on my phone, and when away from home I use the WebUI on my phone via VPN. I'm sure there are a lot of neat app-ish things I'm not getting, and I totally understand Securifi's point in wanting to develop the app and have cloud support (very customer friendly, etc). I'm just not that customer. If the app could connect directly to the A+, that would be great. Baring that, a good phone/tablet friendly web interface would be nice. But from a security and control standpoint, I just don't trust "the cloud"
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The Sensors and Rules do not show up in iPhone Browser.
I can't speak for anything Apple. I will say that everything shows up and works perfectly on my old Androids, that are too old to use the app.
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For me it is about control. I've never signed up for the cloud account or even downloaded the app -- I don't want to depend on an outside resource, and don't want any unnecessary access (security hole) on my system. At home I use the WebUI on my phone, and when away from home I use the WebUI on my phone via VPN. I'm sure there are a lot of neat app-ish things I'm not getting, and I totally understand Securifi's point in wanting to develop the app and have cloud support (very customer friendly, etc). I'm just not that customer. If the app could connect directly to the A+, that would be great. Baring that, a good phone/tablet friendly web interface would be nice. But from a security and control standpoint, I just don't trust "the cloud"
Could not agree more. Securifi should just concentrate on completing the core functionality such as REAL router functions, Vera or ST level sensor support, and functional automation IN THE ROUTER (not in the cloud).
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Simply put, everybody making these knick-knacks believes that they deserve your data. And that they deserve to make money from selling that data because they made the device that you want to use.
Sure they'll promise "oh, we'll totally anonymize it before selling it. or it's just aggregate data."
I'd send back my Almond+ if I'd get a refund.
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Whoa, didn't find out I have to use the cloud for sensor support until now. If I found out earlier I wouldn't have backed the Kickstarter campaign.
I'm under no illusion that my network is completely safe even without a cloud backdoor in my home router, but the smaller the potential attack surface the better. For this very reason I stopped buying anything from D-Link for my family once they started integrating this cloud nonsense. With no disrespect to your abilities, Securifi is a relatively no-name company which I'd be unwise to put any more trust with the data of my entire LAN on than on D-Link (which I have zero trust,) especially considering this cloud service is free.
If due to any resource constraints or other considerations you cannot cut the service from the cloud, please consider giving us the more cautious/paranoid customers the information on how to completely turn off the service on our Almond+, so that we can continue using it as a dumb router with relatively more peace of mind. Thanks!
BTW, since I never bothered to complain to D-Link about this I don't imagine a lot of lost potential customers would let you know about it either... so please, consider it.
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Whoa, didn't find out I have to use the cloud for sensor support until now. If I found out earlier I wouldn't have backed the Kickstarter campaign.
I don't know that it is as bad as all that. The HA features have been working fine for me just using the WebUI (locally when at home, and via VPN when away from home). Of course there is no such thing as notifications, but that is not something I'm that concerned about. Maybe they could add email notifications at some point. But the basic automation works just fine without using the cloud or the app. Just last night I turned my heater on remotely so that the house would be warm when I got home.
If due to any resource constraints or other considerations you cannot cut the service from the cloud, please consider giving us the more cautious/paranoid customers the information on how to completely turn off the service on our Almond+, so that we can continue using it as a dumb router with relatively more peace of mind. Thanks!
I second that! I would also like to totally disable the cloud services on the A+, but haven't bothered trying yet. I never signed up for a cloud account, so I figure I'm probably OK for now. But yes, I'd like to turn off the cloud services completely -- both to close any potential security holes and also just to reduce unnecessary load on the A+. Instructions from Securifi on how to do this without causing problems would be very welcome.
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Matt, where can I find the doc on the tcp command to do this? Do you have any example Tasker actions you could share?
I'm sorry I never received an email about this reply. Anyway, you install mochad as per [1]. Then I just do http connections (I added my little web perl script to the package, since tcp isn't native in tasker and requires a plugin), like this [2]. You can see all the different parameters you can give in that same wiki. Anyways, there are lots of things I would like to make better if the SDK allowed it (or if they built an API), but this works well enough for me. You could in theory do this remotely through VPN or by putting up HTTP Basic auth and opening a web port to the world.
[1] http://wiki.securifi.com/index.php?title=X10_Integration#Installation (http://wiki.securifi.com/index.php?title=X10_Integration#Installation)
[2] https://gist.github.com/mattea/ee5bdadf475348ae495c (https://gist.github.com/mattea/ee5bdadf475348ae495c)
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Simply put, everybody making these knick-knacks believes that they deserve your data. And that they deserve to make money from selling that data because they made the device that you want to use.
Sure they'll promise "oh, we'll totally anonymize it before selling it. or it's just aggregate data."
I'd send back my Almond+ if I'd get a refund.
1. We only store sensor states in the cloud.
2. We don't sell any data to anyone.
3. Yes, we look at the data, but it's so we know what's going and we can improve things.
Right now the cloud service is far from where we'd like it to be and I can only apologize on behalf of the company for the issues we've been having as of lately, but we're working on improving things.
I've also put forward the feedback from everyone in this thread to our CEO and VP of software development.
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Whoa, didn't find out I have to use the cloud for sensor support until now. If I found out earlier I wouldn't have backed the Kickstarter campaign.
I'm under no illusion that my network is completely safe even without a cloud backdoor in my home router, but the smaller the potential attack surface the better. For this very reason I stopped buying anything from D-Link for my family once they started integrating this cloud nonsense. With no disrespect to your abilities, Securifi is a relatively no-name company which I'd be unwise to put any more trust with the data of my entire LAN on than on D-Link (which I have zero trust,) especially considering this cloud service is free.
If due to any resource constraints or other considerations you cannot cut the service from the cloud, please consider giving us the more cautious/paranoid customers the information on how to completely turn off the service on our Almond+, so that we can continue using it as a dumb router with relatively more peace of mind. Thanks!
BTW, since I never bothered to complain to D-Link about this I don't imagine a lot of lost potential customers would let you know about it either... so please, consider it.
As mentioned in my post above, we only send sensor state data to the cloud. Everything is encrypted using SSH encryption, even the firmware downloads are SSH encrypted. This is also why we've had a few glitchy issues, especially when the time ended up being wrong on the Almond+, as we're checking the validity of the public SSH certificate when we do a lot of things.
If you never signed up to the cloud service, i.e. set up a cloud account, then the only time we get any data is when you're requesting a firmware update via the LCD UI, send logs or request weather information and even in those cases, it's minimal data.
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As mentioned in my post above, we only send sensor state data to the cloud. Everything is encrypted using SSH encryption, even the firmware downloads are SSH encrypted. This is also why we've had a few glitchy issues, especially when the time ended up being wrong on the Almond+, as we're checking the validity of the public SSH certificate when we do a lot of things.
If you never signed up to the cloud service, i.e. set up a cloud account, then the only time we get any data is when you're requesting a firmware update via the LCD UI, send logs or request weather information and even in those cases, it's minimal data.
Hi Lars,
Thanks for the reply. I'm not doubting that you don't intentionally send my LAN traffic to your servers in any way, and I'm glad that you are taking necessary precautions to protect the data in transit. However, the point is to minimize exposure of proprietary services on the router to the internet, so that if your cloud service were to be compromised, it does not bring the attackers into my LAN.
From how you are stating it, it sounds to me the home automation services on the Almond+ phones home but does not listen to an outside port. Could you confirm this?
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Not quite, we do have a daemon that listens, but it's part of the cloud service, so if you didn't sign up for an Almond account, it's not running.
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Not quite, we do have a daemon that listens, but it's part of the cloud service, so if you didn't sign up for an Almond account, it's not running.
But I think there are still things running. I've never signed up for the cloud, but have seen something like "cloudha" running on my A+ (can't check right now as I'm not at home). It would be nice to know which daemons could be disabled (and how to do so cleanly) without breaking anything. If you want I can send you the output of ps, but it won't be before the weekend.
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1. We only store sensor states in the cloud.
2. We don't sell any data to anyone.
3. Yes, we look at the data, but it's so we know what's going and we can improve things.
Right now the cloud service is far from where we'd like it to be and I can only apologize on behalf of the company for the issues we've been having as of lately, but we're working on improving things.
I've also put forward the feedback from everyone in this thread to our CEO and VP of software development.
Thank you very much! All I want is the option to disable the cloud and run my own local software/open a port and use a DNS service. Willing to pay or something to help.
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In the short term, if you only need to control lights, give this a try http://forum.securifi.com/index.php?topic=2527.0
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Just checking in with the Securifi Staff to see if anyone has bothered to shoot off an email about the idea for alternatives to the cloud and funding methods. I mean I'm even willing to pay again for a feature that was implied in the video ({local control not cloud dependent). Because I'm seriously about to take my Almond+ and shoot it then upload the video warning others not to buy one. I can't ever connect to the dang thing at home or away, you're cloud services are worthless in Ky. Every now and then I manage to send a control/command but it takes way longer (10+ seconds sometimes, less the a second others) then using the web interface. But I bought this router because it promised a working android. So far i've yet to see that in my state. Maybe it's my ISP maybe it's some strange thing with my settings (I really doubt it but maybe) I just know i've not gotten anywhere near what I feel like it's supposedly to be worth.
All I want is to safely be able to use the product I paid for. Is there a return policy on Almond+ bought during the beta email signup?
I really don't want to have to get rid of my Almond+ but frankly it's not worth the money and if I can't return it for a full refund then I might as well destroy it so others know just how incredibly frustrating this has been. I get your CEO's or whoever has this idea about cloud service noensinne well you're customers are yelling at you in this thread for an alternative. Generally speaking if a company wants to survive more then a few release lines they know to listen to major complaints. Also because of section 215 any and all information sent out of my country can and is recorded. So unless you have local cloud servers in my country that don't need to connect then you're cloud product design is intentionally letting the NSA and potentially others record our keys and commands.
All i'm asking for is someone to respond to a simple request for an alternative, but you guys have clearly been instructed to skate around this issue and it's outrageous. I'm even considering contacting the BBB, I don't know if I'm the only one who's having this level of rage with the cloud system but I know it's taken a wonderful product and created much stress in my life. This is not the product I was promised, and i'm willing to meet you guys half way to make it the one I was. But thus far it's been months I don't care how busy you are i've been answered on other questions and this is clearly intentionally not being answered because the company has zero interest in removing the cloud crapware.
So can we please get a letter sent off before I feel the need to do something rash? Seriously, you guys never once mentioned jack about the cloud before you got my money, this feels like a bait and switch. I don't like being rude, and honestly I feel I am being; but I am so incredibly offended at how your company is actively ignoring this thread because it's inconvenient. I went form a guy wait almost a year to get my beloved Almond+ the promised machine, t being another furious customer who got what they didn't pay for. I don't want your cloud, we all are aware we don't need the cloud for the app to work. This is clearly the company deciding what's best for the consumer because it's best for the company's.
I don't blame the person who has to read this of course, and i'm sorry for any undue stress you might feel as a result of this. But please let you boss know just how big of an issue this is, it's the most insulting experience i've ever had dealing with a company and i've bought at Walmart. before. If I don't get response in a few days in destroying this POS and letting everyone I know not to buy any product form this company because bait+switch. Give us a cloud free alternative, or let us know you're not going to do it. Not "not at this time" we all know that's a diplomatic way to say no so just say it or lets try to work together and make this thing I already spent good money on and LOTS of time trying to get working correctly to work correctly. Without and middlemen. I don't mind to buy my own domain, I already did. on that note I can't use it because the open-wrt build is non-standard and it won't work with my domain. (I actually broke DNS trying to do this, but that's another thread). All I want is to use my router..
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Weird... I've had my share of frustration with the A+ (and still have unfortunately... :( ), but the cloud is not one of them.
Except for the occasional glitches when they were having some problems, it has been working as intended.
This is of course no answer to your question about eliminating the cloud, but I do think you should check your setup or ISP if you are having this much problems with it...
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Yeah I've reset my modem a number of times, my routers have all been wiped clean and resetup. The only thing I can think of it's some weird issue with my phone being connected to one of my routers and it might be having issues connection to the cloud when i'm not hooked directly through the A+. But honestly the announce of that isn't nearly as bad as my (in my opinion, justified) paranoia of the cloud. Why on earth would they think I want my router the thing that is the most crucial part of a network to be that vulnerable from so many forms of attack? I'm not even talking about some NSA agent stealing and selling my information, i'm talking about corporate espionage frying our machines, or a hacker tapping into them. I mean the last two or three years have shown the concept just isn't safe for sensitive things, truly sensitive things. Like would you store your Social Security number in google Drive? Then why would you want your security system dependent on trusting a company not to go under, get attacked, or have just one bad employee. Frankly the moment something happens and it's the "cloud" that got breached i'm holding Securifi solely responsible for all consequences. I've begged and pleaded, and even offered to help fund to get off the cloud. I wasn't told it was a mandatory feature for home automation and the Android App befor I bought it and I looked around. Sadly I only had the kickstarter page to go form and I didn't remember them mentioning dependence on the internet for my app to work. So when my modem stales out, or if there's a bad winter, my security is useless, my automation is useless, and it's basically just an overpriced router with a silly touch screen. However with cloudless app functionality we know that this will work even if Securifi goes bankrupt, or if they get hacked it doesn't have to mean doom and terror for every customer. Also I don't think Securifi has thought out the liability issues with forcing a cloud only approach. I don't think i'm the only one who doesn't want to have to have internet for my phone that's on the exact same network as the machine (or if I buy a domain and open a port) that could be easily accomplished.
Does anyone else have connection issues still or is it just me?
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MrBishop,
I have not had issues with the cloud functionality in general (barring the previously mentioned service disruptions) and mine generally respond within a second or two. That being said I am also on board with a cloud alternative, like a SECURE method to set the app to go directly to the router itself. Or maybe have the router WUI available using DNS... which is possible NOW but not nearly as secure as would be desired.
Plus it has been mentioned before that having a fallback to their cloud infrastructure (setting the app to go directly back to the router) would be beneficial for when the cloud is having trouble. As we have seen a few times. Usually not Securifi's fault there but "the cloud" is not the end-all-be-all solution many companies enjoy touting.
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I agree. I do not like the clouds. Securifi is making themselves a target for hackers. If they could hack into securifi's system, they probably could mess with customers sensors. There should be an alternative where I can connect to my home ip and be able to access these functions. I don't see why there is a need for Securifi to be involved in this. Why are they the middleman!?
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The cloud services seem to be down again I haven't received a single notification on my android since the last 24 hours of-course cant control the almond remotely too.
Locally the Almond+ is working sensors / switches all functional Status says it is connected to the Internet, Phone too is working fine connected to the net.
Would like to know like others have mentioned here if there is anyway remote access could be executed independent of the securifi cloud services....
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I have two Almond +, and never had a cloud problem until last week.
I work in Singapore and use the cloud to control my devices in Florida and Puerto Rico; however, the Almond + in Puerto Rico lost connectivity to the cloud, but the GUI is working fine according to my 90 year old mother. Luckily, I'm not using it as a router, so I can control my security cameras directly and with my Synology NAS. There's no way for me to troubleshoot this issue from Singapore using your cloud, and will have to wait until I can send someone over to the house to checkout the device and call customer service if necessary.
The Almond + in Florida is working fine, but it's unfortunate that we cannot upgrade the firmware via the cloud.
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@MrBishop
Well we are going to release Local connection of Android app directly to the Almond in a month or two, We have made beta version of app for Sensor logs, now working on Scenes, the next is Local connection. We have already started implementing it.
@Sharad
Can you logout for the app and go to Settings->Apps->Almond-> Clear data/Cache and login back again. Your notifications should be up, if not, please let me know.
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I have two Almond +, and never had a cloud problem until last week.
I work in Singapore and use the cloud to control my devices in Florida and Puerto Rico; however, the Almond + in Puerto Rico lost connectivity to the cloud, but the GUI is working fine according to my 90 year old mother. Luckily, I'm not using it as a router, so I can control my security cameras directly and with my Synology NAS. There's no way for me to troubleshoot this issue from Singapore using your cloud, and will have to wait until I can send someone over to the house to checkout the device and call customer service if necessary.
The Almond + in Florida is working fine, but it's unfortunate that we cannot upgrade the firmware via the cloud.
Please give me your EmailID with which you have affiliated your account, I will look into the problem. Yes Firmware Upgrade from app will be there in next release of app.
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@MrBishop
Well we are going to release Local connection of Android app directly to the Almond in a month or two, We have made beta version of app for Sensor logs, now working on Scenes, the next is Local connection. We have already started implementing it.
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Awesome glad to hear it, will it be possible to open a port and use a DNS to access it remotely as well? Any current or future encryption plans? (SSL, SSH, VPN) Can't wait to use this. IF you are looking for a beta tester I am willing to give you logs, etc.
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Please give me your EmailID with which you have affiliated your account, I will look into the problem. Yes Firmware Upgrade from app will be there in next release of app.
That's great news regarding firmware upgrade from the app.
Will send you PM with my email ID for you to look into my problem. Thanks!
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Add another voice to the anti-cloud group. It's fine when we are all in Beta and still working on basic functions, but eventually this will go into production and then I want the door shut.
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I prefer local control and dont want the cloud either. It's ok if it's there, but i dont want to be dependent on it.
It was the main reason i went with the A+.
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I too, am interested in Local control. I bought my almond+ a while back and just now took it out to set it up and was disappointed to see that I cant just Open a port on one of my ISP's and route through so that I coud use DNS internally..
I am an owner in a cloud services company, and here I am posting in a forum about how I dont want to use the cloud...
one of the reasons we are goriwing and becoming succesful is the fact in our product we offer "local processing" for the core of our services,. it has become one of the big reasons people buy our product over the competitor is that our core functionality and features are available during a cloud or ISP failure.
sure maybe some of the most flashy bells and whistles arent, but to the customer (and the patrons of the customer) our system operates as normal during ISP failure..
one of the reasons I bought Venstar instead of Nest for my thermostats is because they have a Local API.. I couldnt have my HVAC system faltering because the API was cloud based.
My home automation system has been 12 years in the making, and many of its features rival and exceed that of commercial building control systems..
tje almond+ comes into play as it seemed an easy way to add Zigbee / Zwave products to my Mix.. something that my current Homeseer System Lacks on.. (unless I go to their new version which requires i hand-tap my whole Database (500 devices and 100 events.. oh and REWRITE 50 scripts AND a 12000 Line HVAC control program as their API completely changed..).. so Alas updating that system is unlikely anytime soon..
id really Love to be able to use my almond+ but I fear I cannot.. im looking for some way via ie REST API or such that I could talk to the LOCAL ROUTER with.. (ie NOTE: Venstar Tstats have a nice little LOCAL REST API). (the philips hue bridge has a LOCAL REST API) I understand there is some type of SDK for alomnd+ but havent seen much about it.. im guessing thats just for writing android apps??